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Saturday, September 18, 2010

Free will? Or is it "all about the meat"?

Hi there -- I hope you are enjoying a relaxing weekend. Or an exciting weekend. Or a (fill in the blank) weekend that is exactly what you would hope for.  :oD

I'm going to try to keep this brief, but would LOVE to hear what you think. Heck, share this with your friends, enemies and co-workers. It would be fun to get a discussion going on this:

Is there such a thing as "free will"?

As a neuroscientist who also happens to be a christian, I find that question bounces around the walls of my brain with a remarkable frequency. Matt, who is also a neuroscientist, but an atheist is firmly in the "it's all about the "meat"" camp. He believes that the chemical soup that bathes the various areas of our brains is responsible for how we feel and act at any given time. That there isn't much choice, or "will" to be tapped.

I admit he's got a point. I imagine that you, if you have ever suffered from a neurological issue such as narcolepsy, depression, bi-polar disorder or a similar challenge may also understand his point -- whether or not you actually agree with it.

I suspect that most of us have had experiences, thoughts, feelings, actions, that were modifiable via a neuro-active drug or chemical. Have you ever had a "runner's high"? I, sadly, haven't. I do, however, find that pretty much any other kind of exercise will elevate my mood, no matter how depressed or "normal" I was feeling prior to the exercise.

Pharmaceutical treatments act in much the same way. As do some "over the counter" (or "under the radar") street drugs. They change the chemical composition in an area of the brain that makes one feel, think, or act differently.

There was a sadly common story in today's Oregonian about a man with schizophrenia who refused to take his meds and eventually digressed to the point where he stabbed to death his sister who was trying to care for him. That man is a different person on and off his medications. Or at the very least, he certainly acts like a different person when he is on his meds.

So -- answer me this please: is it all about the meat? Are we pretty much a product of our brain chemistry?? Or does he or you or I have "free will". And is this really an "either/or" question?

Oh, and one last question. What do you think about the practice of forcing someone to take their medication? Some states allow this for mentally ill individuals who are deemed dangerous; others don't. What do you think? Is this every appropriate? Is it ever inappropriate?

This inquiring mind wants to know ;o)

Now go get some exercise or do something positive that makes YOU feel good!

9 comments:

  1. I am going to ponder this my friend. William James might have a thinkg or two to add. In his absence I will only say that I still believe we are limited in our understanding of the science of the brain. Kudos to Matt and the rest of you brainiacs but I still see the possibilities for faith and belief perhaps could go beyond what we human critters know. Not so mystical? Perhaps, but faith and beliefs alter the meat don't they? Endless possibilities for chemical reactions? Oh my, I am getting another cup of tea to ponder this one. Hugs to you, Shell

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  2. As s person of strong faith for many years I have pondered this question more and more as i age and see so much of life that challenges my most cherished assumptions.
    I think we do have free will. But so many things impinge on it. Sometimes doing what we believe is the "right thing" is a monumental act of will against every inclination. And sometimes we are not able to overcome the forces pushing us.
    And the above point that our thoughts actually change our brains biologically makes the question that much more interesting.
    The meds, I think a case can be made for forcing some people to be on meds. A slippery slope, to be sure, but I have seen /read about too many tragedies that could have been averted to believe otherwise.
    Susan

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  3. As s person of strong faith for many years I have pondered this question more and more as i age and see so much of life that challenges my most cherished assumptions.
    I think we do have free will. But so many things impinge on it. Sometimes doing what we believe is the "right thing" is a monumental act of will against every inclination. And sometimes we are not able to overcome the forces pushing us.
    And the above point that our thoughts actually change our brains biologically makes the question that much more interesting.
    The meds, I think a case can be made for forcing some people to be on meds. A slippery slope, to be sure, but I have seen /read about too many tragedies that could have been averted to believe otherwise.
    Susan

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  4. Great points from both of you! I am holding off for a bit longer before I weigh in with more of my own perspective on these questions. I'm hoping to get a bit more discussion going but don't have time this evening to post more. Who knows, by tomorrow I may have changed my own perspective! Again ;o)

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  5. wow need so much more time to give that proper answer! But for now, I'll chide mom, Haven't many of the worst things been done in the effort to do "what [some] believe is the "right thing"".Ok Barely funny? remember how hard I try not to laugh!
    For the record, I do believe that sentient beings posses a varying degree of free will, the fact that our brain functions on the same principles/ chemistry, that drive varyingly simple, (possibly purely environmental /instinctive) stimuli based thinkers, does not detract in any way from the clear abilities that we seem to have. And to redress the point- It is something that varies. In a perfect world everyone would have the same level of clarity energy and option, Chance, to express this unique gift. But the Christians of the bible sure didn't believe this is a perfect world did they?

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  6. There remain fundamental mysteries to the human experience and condition which go on unexplained while we mere humans continue to go on.

    Is there Free Will? Of course there is, almost necessitated merely by our ability to ponder the concept, but confirmed by the accidental reality that we do stupid things all the time.

    In my opinion (you neuroscientist, me philosopher/theologian - so what an apt conversation to have together), and of course subjective as every other, free will exists once any individual obtains two items of awareness; that they are different/separate from other aware individuals, and, that they are responsible for their own actions and consequences regardless of outside factors.

    You offered the example that is appropriate for me - do psychoactive drugs prove or disprove free will, in that we can clearly chemically manipulate basic behaviors, emotions and perceptions, and my counter is that, although true, we fall very short of showing that we can manipulate sense of self. Perhaps we haven't discovered it yet, but we don't seem to ever find cases where any individual lost the ability to self-identify. You know that old Cartesian idea of think-therefor-am? His point I think (amongst many) was that free will is really hard and takes a lot of responsibility and willingness to be wrong, and maybe it would be so much better to buy into the idea that that we are just a product of accumulated if/then detritus and mechanical habit - but unfortunately no matter how much of what you experience that you CAN'T have faith in, you are still stuck with KNOWING that you ARE.

    It's the responsibility part that sticks in our craw - especially every time an outside force acts on us in a way we feel powerless to counter. But knowing that no matter how much you try to control me you can only make the attempt because the ME is there in the first place can, I believe, provide me an infinite reserve of opportunities to exercise my will to alter those attempts, meaning I am never really as powerless as I might otherwise want to believe.

    Anecdotally I can prove that no matter how different a person is on or off their 'meds' it didn't eliminate their ability to make a choice, but anecdotes are subjective and second-hand and I am sure that you as a scientist know how much usefullnes is to be had in second-hand subjective 'proofs'...

    So that is where it comes down to the ultimate subjective reasoning (which is technically not really reason at all) - faith. In so long as I know I AM, I can and should have faith that I can effect my existence no matter how small the ways. Even if I question that which controls me I can choose to question, and that proves the pudding, I think anyway :-)

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  7. A simple reasoning I feel is appropriate, is likening the freewill/ right and wrong theorization of star wars' Jedi/dark/lightsides (don't laugh yet!)

    The dark side is of course the willing(or lazy) dissolutive path of giving up our free will, becoming a follower, no differentiate if that means we choose to follow the little chemical impulses from the can of soup on our shoulders into mindless self fulfillment in its forms (cocaine, sex, primerib, career, fortune, fame)
    Thats the meat- and it means that we are not expressing free will- not that we can't.

    Conversely; we have a very unique ability to make ourselves aware of factors beyond the daily requirements of our chemistry. When I look at the big picture -MY ANSWER- is that I am not the priority. There exist purposes, needs, organizations, deeds to be done, information to be searched for, faith to express, that outweigh the needs and desires of any individually. The light is picking up free will learning to use it in putting the needs of the people and issues that we have chosen first, while taking 2nd the best care we can of ourselves, so that we are ready to serve others.
    For my particular faith the modestly taking care of the needs of our body is also to show respect to the creator.

    Our insistence on at least trying to be a contributor/ and having a higher purpose in existing. Not to make a distinction between your higher purpose and mine,

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  8. As a good friend of mine pointed out in high school, there is always a choice, even when it would appear that there isn't. You may not like the options, or the choice to make is obvious because one or more options are ridiculous in the extreme, but the choice is still there. That is the essence of free will - choice. I can choose how to respond and will affect the outcome. We know this because we can put together cause and effect and see how different choices alter the outcome. The vase doesn't fall off the shelf when pushed back from the ledge. It does fall off if left on the ledge. The oposite of free-will is determinism. It doesn't matter what I do to the vase, it will always fall off the shelf. I find it interesting that when you use a case like that, we understand that determinism isn't correct, but when we talk about how the self relates to the world, all of the sudden it just might be.

    I do see where Matt is coming from. Post-partum depression and PMS have definitely shown me that my gut emotional response to life is definitely intertwined with the "meat." I have a love-hate relationship with estrogen, progesterone, and vitamin D. But those things don't negate my ability to choose my actions, although they may alter my ability to be rational about those choices. No where have I seen free will equated with rational or logical, just not predetermined. I suppose one could make the argument that free will is nothing more than our perception of the probablistic nature of the system. Given a certain mix of neurochemicals and a certain set of stimuli, the physical response will likely be X and the emotional response will likely be Y. That kind of behavior is rampant in all kinds of systems throughout creation. If you look at it that way, you might then say free will is the ability to sway the odds in favor of one outcome over another.

    As for forcing someone to take their meds, I think there are certain situations where that is acceptable. You either take your pills or we lock you up. It's more cost effective to make the medicine manditory. That said, I don't know how effective that is. I think that a more sane approach is to understand why one state (off meds) is preferable to the other and work to fix that.

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  9. I am a ravaged sentient piece of meat with a will. I am perfectly capable of doing stupid things all the time, but sometimes also caring, canny, thoughtful, deft and even adept and subtle things. I am living with chronic pain sans pharmaceutical analgaesia and am susceptible, very, to mild mind alteration of any kind. I rather like it and seek it, through various media and practices, prayer, meditation, botanical remedies, literature, television, writing, being in love, parenting and sleep. How free am I? Much of this phenomenal world I find myself temporally inhabiting, this cage of my shape, these hours and years, these lenses of perception that connect me to my life, my experiences, my opinions, my intimate, daily encounter with the world, to a great extent do not seem to be manifestations of my conscious intent, more like a mantle I wear that I've embroidered and patched a bit over the years, and decide again how to wear and accessorize or dress down from day to day. But it's not me...it all seems to have always existed independent of me, and now, to my own surprise, here I am inhabitting it! I seem to have happened upon all this by happy accident. I can't fathom or begin to explain what has happened! But I love being sentient. I'm glad to be here identifying as this person who is me. I have a will. It's like a revved small engine, well fueled and it just wants to go go go, even though I sense the journey is without clear destination and even perhaps even, in a sense absurd. The common destiny I share with everything alive is death, but meantime, life... that's all I know for sure. Angels? Auras? Dreams? Premonitions? Meat dreaming. I don't know why meat aspires so to the ethereal. Being meat is great. I give, I *lend* meaning to what I do in waking life by attempting to do things gently, as if life were but a dream, as the song says, but a long dream, a meaningful dream, a dream of mystical portend.

    As for forcing anything on anybody, I find it horrific and distasteful, I hate doing it, but in a life or death situation I might force someone to be safe even if meds were the only tactic for that. If there were another way?!

    I'm grateful that I'm not in a position to have to make that decision for or about anyone. I hate being forced to do anything and would find it abhorent to be the enforcer of something as invasive and sketchy as medical behavior control. We don't know what it does to people, really, does it take away their souls? Or give a soul back to its body with different biochemical instructions?
    I feel oppressed and ignorant just thinking about that and am glad I know it isn't up to me to know the answers, only to explore the questions.

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Thank you for stopping by and for sharing your response to this discussion!